FM Careers Spotlight Interview: Richard Hall, Project Director, Mitie

• How was your transition into FM?
• What sorts of things do you think someone can do to prepare themselves for that transition?
• What things did you find most enjoyable?
• What advice do you have for military service people that are now stepping into the FM sector?
• What advice did you receive advice from different people or organisations?

Michelle: I'd love to hear about your transition into FM, Richard. You were in the Navy for a long, long time, was it 19 or 17 years?

Richard: 17 years, yeah. 17 years. So how, how did you make that transition? When you're in the armed forces for such a long time.

You get institutionalised. And there's this not it's not done on purpose, but there's this whole thing about you will never succeed in civvy street. You will never do better than than you do in the armed forces. And that's that's a common story you hear from lots and lots of people.

So maybe no different coming out into the big scary world, having to actually work for a living, for a change. And what do I do next? Where do I go? How how am I skills transferable into civvy street.

And you know, it's a question that every service leader asks themselves and there is no answer. And I've got a lot of friends who make the transition in the last couple of years, and I've tried to help and guide them.

But it's it's so it's so buried deep into your psyche when you spend so long in the military that even if you've got other people that you know and trust who've been there and done it, you still don't believe them. You still. “What am I going to do?”

My transition and I'll be honest, where I've ended up is more out of luck than judgment.

However, with with the right guidance for others, you know, I hope they pick up from my experience and they can make more informed decision.

I left the Navy and I had no idea what I wanted to do and effectively have been on the ship. I was a marine engineer, so I was a chief marine engineer. You're trained in everything from fixing toilets to working on jet engines to, you know, fixing a door frame to working on hydraulics.

You know, you do have a big broad brush of skill sets. And so facilities management is is the perfect sort of industry to go into. And of course, you don't understand that you haven't been exposed to it.

So I went through a recruiter and had a very, very proactive and helpful recruiter from from PRS Recruitment and who specialise in people leaving the forces and going into sort of more technical roles. And she set up many interviews for engineering management roles and things like that. And I think in about a space of about two weeks, I've been suffering in about four or five interviews for those types of roles.

And this one role came up. She phoned me about it was about a project manager And I sat and thought “What do I know about project management?” I haven’t got a clue what project management really is.

Unbeknownst to me, I've been doing it most of my military career. It's just not the full thing. But probably about 80-85% of the actual thing I've been doing.

And I remember not so much arguing, let's call it debating on the phone with that sort of saying, No, that's not for me. That's not what I'd do, though. I'm an engineer, let's stick to engineering.

So after about 20 minutes, the penny kind of dropped with me. And so for, you know, she's done me proud up to this point. She’s given me about four or five interviews to this day. I want to keep her onside. I'll go to the interview. I don't really have anything to lose by doing it. I'll just do it. Get out of the way. We can move on and focus on the engineering management stuff that I really want to do. Well, the only thing I know what to do.

So I remember going up to Waterloo for my interview for a company called Bouygues. Big FM outfit. And I remember sitting down with their then head of projects, a guy called Sharon Safari asking me lots of questions and sat there sort of batting them off, “have you ever lead a team?”

Yeah. How many examples do you want? And all these kind of things were coming out and I found the interview easy. However, it was only 25 minutes long, and I remember sitting in the waiting room beforehand and there were lots of other people dressed in suits with their little briefcases and me thinking, no chance, You know, there’s lots of professionals there. They all looked the part.

So therefore they you know, you've got that doubt in your mind. Anyway, I did the interview 25 minutes and thought “That’s that”. Clearly not long enough to be a successful interview. Got on the train and went home and literally that evening the recruiter phoned me up, said, “Right, I've got some opportunities for you and some offers have come through”.

Some offers. That's amazing. And if the four or five other interviews have been for, I've been offered four of those roles. And then she also set this role I'd been to that afternoon for project manager.

They wanted to offer me the job and I sort of sat there and thought, “Oh, right?” I don't know how 25 minutes, that's okay. And then she started going through what the offers were and project management actually offered me the best, the best salary.

And I can remember Richard Branson sort of quotes saying, you know, "Don't give up a great opportunity", you know, learn it, do it, and then learn it.

And I thought, you know, I'm going to do that. So I took the role and, you know what, I never looked back from there.

Met some fantastic people. And I think a large part of my-well, the reason that I got the success I have today is because of those people. You know, it was that I wouldn’t say so much nurturing that sounds a bit immature. But that guidance, that mentorship, of those particular people helped me to become the person I am today.

And it's not so much them being friendly and pointing me in the right direction, it’s showing me how to do the job properly, showing me the processes and doing it properly and getting me embedded in that.

And you know what? For someone coming out in the military, you are process driven. It's rammed into your head from day one. You must follow these processes, you must do things properly, you know, And so you go into a job like that and great, you feel it, you feel comfortable. I don't feel like a fish out of water any more, you know.

And I spend I spent three and a half really good years with Bouygues energy and services. And I just I just got on with the whole set up with that business.

And it kind of reminded me of being in the military. But, you know, the way you know, the chief executive, David Carr, he goes about and gets involved with things, you know, you could be sat on your little projects, like doing your little project. And then that afternoon, David Carr would come and sit down next to you and his laptop out working next to you.

You know, there's no “them” and “us”, there's no “I am important” kind of mentality and I like that because the military does have that to a degree, but it's very much a team ethos, you know, all one one sort of team.

Bouygues, and probably again more luck than anything else, that gave me that fix that I was used to. So that helped my transition. I think it's really important for people coming out of the military.

It's not just finding a career, it's finding what you're comfortable with, what you're used to. And I think for a lot of recruiters and employers out there, they don't understand what goes on inside a veteran's head when they're leaving the services.

So I think that's a really important message to sort of get across to people that it's not just, you know, these all these people have got so many transferable skills, you know, leadership, technical ability, drive, you know, work ethos, passion.

But they need a little bit of an arm around them just to help them make that transition. And like I say, Bouygues gave me that opportunity. So, you know, and since then I've worked for a couple of corporate businesses, I've worked for some small businesses, I've experienced the highs and the lows, worked for a company called George Birchall Services.

Unfortunately, I went into administration, so I sort of been on the receiving end of being made redundant, you know, being on the receiving end of being promoted.

And again, you know, I've got to the position where I have now just through good and bad experiences and it's something that now I'd like to sort of share with other people.

I like to give back and I do have a lot of people sort of leaving the services. They reach out to me on LinkedIn in particular and it’s such a fantastic platform and ask questions. I'm more than happy to sort of give them that guidance because

I didn't necessarily have that when I left with LinkedIn, but you see it more or more now, a lot of people being, you know, champions of people leaving the forces and so on.

So yeah, that's that's been my journey. There's been a lot of long hours. There's been a lot of blood, sweat and tears with it. But I think I'm a firm believer you go with what you put in, and I'd say that to anyone, and that's just for people in services.

But, you know, I found, so I'm not in the FM world anymore. I’m in the energy performance world.

But it's certainly an industry. I wouldn't take a second thought about going back into if I wanted to go back in that direction.

Michelle: A big part for you in that transition was obviously that imposter syndrome. You were thinking in the beginning, you know, why would I go for this project management job? What do I know?

And obviously, you know, Bouygues definitely saw something in you. And what do you think?

So skill. Yeah, you've touched on some of those, but what sorts of things do you think someone can do to prepare themselves for that transition in terms of communicating their skills and the types of things that they have been doing that may be transferable into that next move into a new sector?

Richard: I think there's two sides to that. I think there's the transition piece from the individual making the move, and I think there's also the company, that are, not taking the chance. I think that's probably the wrong thing to say.

But you kind of get my idea on that person coming in into their business. And I think there has to be a happy medium, I think, for the individual leading the service, get some advice for them from those who have already left, you know, but in particular, people who have left your specialisation in the military.

So if you were a mechanical engineer, speak to someone who used to be a mechanical engineer, see what they're doing now.

And if they're in the world in, you know, more importantly, how are they getting on with it? Why are they enjoying it? What are they doing and what makes it so good for them? What makes them feel settled?

And just sort of asking those questions. And not only that, what's the best thing that I can sort of see? How can I can my skills be transferable?

And it’s all the skills that you take for granted. It's your people skills, it's your managerial skills Is your problem solving skills. If you get up and go, it's knowing how to do things when you are asked.

Because that's the big thing that I found since leaving the military isn't such a widely shared characteristic of people and these things, you can't necessarily teach it.

It takes years to ingrain in someone, someone character. So employees love that, you know, they love someone who does what they're told and does it well and will work hard to make sure it's done.

And if you can add other things into that, like management skills. People skills, especially in the FM industry, it's all about people.

You know, you work with people you don't work for companies, and that's what it's about.

Business created through relationships. The relationship is so important and you know, people, even the military, they have that they know how to deal with people.

You look at the army, you know, they go into these horrendous places like Afghanistan, you know, and they're having to befriend local villagers who are absolutely petrified not just of them, but of what might happen to them if they deal with them and they learnt these skills
and how to break down those barriers.

You know, it's those skills that people don't realise when you're coming to civvy street, especially in the FM world. It's child's play, you know, they had it the worst.

So this is this is easy for them. But they don't they don't know that. You can't know what don't know. So that's the person. But from that, from a company's perspective, I would say do your research, understand the people that you're recruiting.

They are not you know, this packaged up products that you can just hit the ground running with. They need a little bit of fine tuning, They need a little bit of guidance.

You know, I'm a big advocate for people leaving the forces, but I do get a little bit frustrated sometimes with the whole super human message that's always sort of plastered. You know, military people are great. This, that and the other. Straight away you kind of feel like someone painting a target on your back.

Or you’re getting peoples backs up and things like that and then you kind of straight away, you know, you're not on a level playing field with your civilian counterpart.

Your expectations of you is up here in comparison and that's unfair for someone in the military. So I think employers either have done their research and have a good understanding of what they're getting.

You know, when someone comes out the services. What about the sort of variety and the diversity of career that you've seen be available across FM.

Because I think, you know, part of the problem for FM as a sector is know, do people know that that's an opportunity in the first place and how do they get involved?

Yeah you know what I'm going to speak about it from the Royal Navy perspective, you know, that's what I lived and breathed. And I don't think there's a single job in the Navy that isn't transferable into the world of FM.

You know, if I think about the Chefs on board that's going into soft services, if I think of the stewards on board ship that's going into soft services, if I think of the air engineers and Marine engineers that's going into hard FM, you know, every single job in the military that I grew up with has transferable skills into the military.

And every single one of them, there is overlap with those skills. Yes, they have their specialisations. Some are Marine engineers, some might handle weapons, but they all have the managerial skills.

They all have the problem solving skills. They all have that drive to get the job done. So the work ethos is there across the board.

So, you know, there is a consistency with what you get from the military and then you've just got the specialisation that sits behind that as well.

Yeah, sorry did I answer the question?

Michelle: Yeah, yeah you did! So project wise, whilst you were in the FM sector, what things did you find most enjoyable and you know, impactful if you like.

Richard: Working for Bouygues and again it goes hand in hand with finding your purpose in life because when you're in the military you feel you have a purpose in life, if that makes sense.

When you come out, you kind of lose your purpose a little bit. I went to work in hospitals, in particular, in West London. Straight away you feel like you've got purpose again because you're delivering something that has an impact on others. And that was fantastic for me that tickled my interest bone straight away.

And I remember I took over from a chap who was leaving the business. So probably not the most motivated individual. But we’d been on one of these sites for a number of years and I joined with this drive and wanted to prove myself and, you know, get my teeth into something new.

And I'm actually found at the end of the year I got pulled to one side and said, You've managed to quadruple our turnover, Richard on projects.

“Have I? Okay?” And for me I wasn't doing anything, I thought, superhuman. I was just putting my head down, getting on with it, knocking out the work.

Don’t get me wrong. The military ethos thing you don't do set hours. It's not a thing in the military. Might be for some branches, but for most of us, it's not a 9-5 or an 8-4.

It's a you do the job till it's done, you know? And then and then you go home. And I think that's one of the things that people coming out of the military need to learn to change and get and get that work life balance.

Because in the military, you don't have a work life balance, work life balance that's not even a phrase. It doesn't exist.

So trying to make that transition is interesting. But from project management, it was doing do projects in hospitals that I knew would do other people good.

And I used to get an immense amount of satisfaction out of a finished project, one that during the design phase that I had input into because people started to take my thoughts and ideas and then you start to see that turn into actual things being developed on site and then this project would be finished and think “that was my idea”.

Great sense of achievement. Fantastic. And then obviously because of my background in marine engineering I then have an input on the engineering side of things as well, that bit to my company is an added bonus because I wasn't employed for my technical knowledge, I was employed for my managerial and problem solving skills.

So now they're getting a bonus. And I think this is the other thing that you get from people coming out of military.

So almost become a one stop shop from a technical perspective and a managerial perspective. And actually, you know, whereas before they might have to employ two different people to do those roles, then I just say “I’ll do it”. Crack on because you're being helpful and it's about being a team player.

So yeah, I think I spent most of my time at a hospital called West Middlesex University Hospital, which is near Twickenham, and three and a half years I was based there. That was my base camp, well I did other hospitals, North Mid, Central mid. I did most of my projects at Westmid and I don't think there's a part of that hospital I haven't knocked down, rebuilt, painted, put something on the roof, you know, I did a lot of projects there so yeah.

That for me, from a project perspective that gave me my satisfaction and even now, you know, I love engineering I miss the hands on stuff from when I was in the Navy, tinkering with things, fixing things. I do miss that.

So I do enjoy it when there's a project that I can actually help with, not interfere, although some others might say different. Not interfere, well trying not to interfere with, but to try and help and guide from experience, you know, from crikey, thousands of projects now in my time out in the military.

So I'd like to think I've got some kind of experience and a knowhow that I can offer others.

So being in the Energy Performance World now, I'm actually doing a project at the minute down at Salisbury Hospital, we're doing an energy performance project. So all that experience I've gained from FM is now transferable again into another industry. So and the chain keeps going.

Michelle: Yeah exactly. It's very linked as well isn't it, you know, at energy performance it's kind of part of you.

You're working very closely on everything and you know, that side of things. What advice would you have for military service people that are now stepping into the FM sector and trying to develop their career further.

Richard: I think again, go back, do some research, you know if you’re leaving the service you get plenty of time to on this.

It's not like you're given a month's notice. You have to give 12 months notice, which I think sounds like an eternity for a lot of people.

But it comes around quick. Use your resettlement wisely do your resettlement courses. Not based on what your mates say, but based on the career that you want to go into.

Again, it all goes back to your research. If you want to go into a FM look at like what managerial qualifications you can get, depends on what level you leave in the military.

You may already have those qualifications. You know, I got institute management qualifications from the Navy, because I left as a chief officer.

So I've got some qualifications already, which they mean nothing to you in the military because qualifications? What do you need them for in the military?

When you leave, it's important that you can relate what you've done into civvy speak because the people on the other side of the desk will want to understand what levels that?

Yeah, so do your research and try and get some of your courses that relate to what you're going into, because that's going to become your the foundations of your career going forward.

Also understand what level you're worth when you come out. One of the biggest things I see people come out and doing is they'll go on to a very low run of the management ladder.

And the thing that I see time and time again is once you come out and you step on that ladder, if you think, “oh no, actually my mates the director of that company”, or whatever? “I could do that easy”. I've got the same skills we served together, we did the same courses.

You can't now leapfrog from where you are up to where they are. Industry doesn't see you that way.

So when you come out, make sure that you pick the level that is related to what your skills are worth, because it's a very hard transition or a very long transition to try and catch up.

So that is really an important because again, you're only as good as your last job. And if your last job was a maintenance manager, sorry, maintenance engineer at a site.

You cant jump up and become the head of maintenance straight away. So yeah, I see that a lot, which that frustrates me a little bit to be honest, because you see people that are capable of so much more, but they make that error.

Well, not an error. That's not fair. They're not given the right advice on where to come out and then they kind of get not stuck but then they take a bit longer to get up the chain.

And if people are as good as you say they are, we think they are, then they will eventually rise to the top. But it just takes them a little bit longer and it's a bit more of a painful journey.

So that's one thing. The other one is, you know, and I say to anyone in the military if you are stuck on an exercise and you were in a burning building and you had casualties everywhere, and we've all done these exercises, is you just you snap into water, you just get on with it.

You know what you got to do. You've got the confidence in you training, in your own self-belief. You just crack on, deal with the casualties, deal with the fire, deal with the building that’s falling down, deal with the unexploded ordnance in the corner of the compartment, whatever it is, you come out to civvy street, you're not confident and have any belief in yourself.

And then you sit in an interview, and I've just said earlier on “No chance” He’s dressed the part” mate seriously!

Last month you were doing a battle damage exercise, you know, in a completely dark compartment, smoke everywhere. You know, you had a flood in one corner or a fire in the other. There were people with legs blown off in the middle of the you know, if you can do all that coming out into the FM world, you can deal with anything.

You just got to have belief that you know and have the confidence in your own abilities. But again, that only comes from understanding what your abilities are and how they relate into civvy speak.

Michelle: It does, yeah. And did you have advice at the outset from a number of different people or organisations that you found useful to tap into at that point?

Richard: Not really. I had some old Navy buddies, if that makes sense? Who helped steer me.

And one of the reasons I ended up taking the job at Bouygues other than being offered the most amount of money was that one of my old shipmates worked for the same company and he couldn't sell it more highly enough.

So I remember having a cup of tea with him or beer, and he just talked me through it, the process, what it was like.

And he did a very different job to me in Bouygues from what I would end up doing. But you just sold the opportunities and the kind of people that you know, that they were up against all the people they were finding and it just wasn't what they were looking for.

And I would potentially bring a different dynamic to it. And is interesting because when I joined Bouygues you know, Bouygues Energy Services.

You know, they're the massive company now when I joined them back in Crikey was it 2014, there was only eight of us in the projects team. You know, three and a half years later there were 42 of us.

I hate to think how big that project team is now, you know, and again, I've helped grow something, you know, so and I remember when I joined, they weren't really looking at military people, but after they got me there, then they proactively started to recruit more military people, in particular ex Navy engineers, because they were basing that on the experience they had with me.

So I'd like to think it was positive. And again, those people come out of the military, they came straight out the military into Bouygues.

And now they've gone off and done bigger and better things with their, their lives as project managers.

So yeah, it's been really good for them, It's been good for the bid for the company.

So yeah, you can see the benefits.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Well that's positive to hear. And obviously there's a huge network of ex military now in FM and hopefully that is growing and with found Veterans network you know long may that continue and so that's been really really useful and really intersting Richard to hear about your transition and your experience in FM and how you've got to where you are today.

So I really, really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for talking to me.

Richard: You're welcome!